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Author Topic: Latimer's Mercy  (Read 3432 times)
f_darkbladeus
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« on: June 20, 2010, 02:52:01 am »

Now there was some media attention to the song "Latimer's Mercy" which appears on the Scream album. I just wondered what your thoughts are on the song or on the act committed.
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MattSabbath13
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« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2010, 08:58:01 pm »

The song is good, not one of the best on the new disk but I enjoy listening to it.  I'm not too informed on the incident but I'll read up on it.  I'm sure the lyrics are just Ozzy's thoughts and what not and hopefully won't be taken to extremes like Hand of Doom, Paranoid, Suicide Solution, Mr. Crowley and so on.  Ozzy has always written about what not only intrigues him but what also puzzles him.  That's what drew me to Ozzy, he didn't just sing about love, or the blues or bitches and money, he has tried to express himself and his thoughts on just about every topic you can think of.  I know my rant more than answered your question but hey I always like to rant about Ozzy, he's da man!
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f_darkbladeus
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« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2010, 02:24:43 pm »

I'm sure the lyrics are just Ozzy's thoughts and what not and hopefully won't be taken to extremes like Hand of Doom, Paranoid, Suicide Solution, Mr. Crowley and so on.  Ozzy has always written about what not only intrigues him but what also puzzles him. 



A farmer in Canada hooked a tube from his truck exhaust into the cab of his truck and put his 12 year old daughter who was born with cerebral palsy in the cab, propped up with a bundle of rags. He started the truck and sat on a tire in the bed watching for approximately 30 minutes while she died. She was in chronic pain from the disease but scheduled in 3 weeks to receive a surgery which would have alleviated that pain from a dislocated hip. While not in a life-threatening situation, her father felt her quality of life so poor he decided to kill her to "put her out of her misery." It sparked outrage amongst the disabled community for her sake because it removed choice from her hands (or others who were medically responsible for her and felt she was able to live a happy life, even if different from what others might describe as 'normal.' )

Here's a take on the issue:

"Robert Latimer murdered his 12-year-old-daughter Tracy in 1993 because she was disabled by cerebral palsy. (The picture is of Tracy and her father.) While many Canadians supported Latimer as a loving father who put his daughter out of misery, he was convicted in of second degree murder. His first conviction was overturned on a technicality, and he was convicted again. In 2000 he began a life sentence with no possibility of parole for ten years.

Throughout this time Latimer has remained unrepentant. His defiant attitude seems to have been key in the decision of the Parole Board to deny day parole. From the story:

Robert Latimer, the Saskatchewan farmer who killed his disabled daughter in 1993, was denied day parole from the minimum-security William Heat Institution outside Victoria on Wednesday afternoon. The three-member parole board told Latimer that they were “struck” that he had failed to develop any insight into his crime during his seven years in prison. “Folks were left the feeling you have not developed the kind of sufficient understanding of your actions,” said Kelly-Ann Speck, one of the three members of the National Parole Board panel.

The decision means Latimer will not be able to spend time in the community. According to Evelyn Blair of the National Parole Board, Latimer likely will not have another opportunity at parole for two years.

I am not against mercy, but denying day parole to Latimer is a very good decision. The Latimer case exposed a noxious core of anti-disabled attitudes in Canada, in which many who would have normally considered any parent who killed his child a monster, instead branded him a hero. (If you doubt it, contrast the public attitude toward Susan Smith who murdered her sons around the time of Tracy’s murder, with the sympathy extended by many Canadians to Latimer.) Murder is murder. The fact of Tracy’s disability did not make her life less worth living–or punishing for its criminal taking. If Robert Latimer had been released it would have sent precisely the wrong message.
"

I found Ozzy's choice of vocal style chilling. It made me get the creepers big time. I think the guy is nuts. And, 10 years for killing your child? Damn, is that all a human life is worth?
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MattSabbath13
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« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2010, 08:51:49 pm »

Thank you for that info.  I really didn't hear much about this case.  It is a moral bender to say the least.  Ozzy's voice is definetly chilling.  From the first couple run throughs of the song it sounds like Ozzy is trying to get inside Latimer's mind to see what he was thinking.  As far as my thoughts on the murder/mercy killing I honestly can't form a solid argument for or against him.  I hope I do not have to ever be in that situation and if I am I don't know what I would do.  I know if I couldn't live comfortabley I would want someone to pull the plug on me but that's just me.  Did his daughter want that?  I do not know.  Your life should be your choice.  Upon reading that he was not remorseful at all was disturbing and made me feel like Robert either lost his mind or may not have wanted to deal with his daughter anymore.  In that selfish case I say let that mofo burn.  THis is like the Terry Shiavo case from Florida a few years back.
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ozzgod38
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« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2010, 10:36:22 pm »

thats a tough one to call
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f_darkbladeus
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« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2010, 05:06:45 pm »

thats a tough one to call

here are my questions on this. do you think it's "ok" to kill someone who's born disabled just because you see that as an unfit and undeserving life to live? should everyone have to meet a minimum criteria of normality or else be subject to arbitrary termination? Should he not have relinquished custody of his daughter to someone who would care for her instead of killing her? Particularly because she was going to have a surgery that would alleviate her hip displacement (and therefore her pain)? I mean, even if she was eventually going to die of the disease, shouldn't she have had the privilege to live out her days as they were numbered instead of having someone, her father and mother no less, decide how many she should live? I am blown away by the story. and the public reaction of support to the father when it was murder. she was just disabled. a beautiful girl, and probably very sweet. should we terminate mongoloid children because they clearly are similarly mentally incapacitated? or limbless ones? ones born with defects that land them permanently in institutions? what about the "invisible" defects. sociopaths, and so on. do we start screening babies, and mark their documentation somehow so if at some point their parents decide to kill them we don't interfere? what about people who are resuscitated and then are vegetables? or, severe quadriplegics? does the lack of physical bodily function despite an intact mind signify it's time to administer the poison or morphine? what about burn victims...there's a whole load of questions this opens up.
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devilmusik
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« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2010, 10:26:27 pm »

 i did not know the history of this song,  i think the child should have been put up for adoption
  very sad story
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AlpineValleyGirl
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« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2010, 03:14:23 pm »

my dad was battling cancer while the Terry Sciavo situation was happening
and all he said to me was, "don't you dare do that to me."

and that's all I've got to say about that
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f_darkbladeus
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« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2010, 02:04:29 am »

my dad was battling cancer while the Terry Sciavo situation was happening
and all he said to me was, "don't you dare do that to me."

and that's all I've got to say about that

What does an adult like Terry Sciavo losing capacity to live as she had up to that time, or your fathers wishes not to have life artificially extended should he become brain dead have to do with killing a child born with a disease who was not brain dead but rather mentally retarded? This girl never knew anything different. Her reality has always been that she was handicapped. Those to me are vastly different issues. This girl did not ask to die, her parents assumed life was not worth living and ended her life. I guess having volunteered three years with the disabled I grew to have a very different opinion about disabilities and those born with them or who have developed them in their lifetimes. Sometimes it's biological, sometimes an accident or twist of fate has brought it about.
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FIRSTOZZYFAN
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« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2010, 10:11:07 pm »

my dad was battling cancer while the Terry Sciavo situation was happening
and all he said to me was, "don't you dare do that to me."

and that's all I've got to say about that

What does an adult like Terry Sciavo losing capacity to live as she had up to that time, or your fathers wishes not to have life artificially extended should he become brain dead have to do with killing a child born with a disease who was not brain dead but rather mentally retarded? This girl never knew anything different. Her reality has always been that she was handicapped. Those to me are vastly different issues. This girl did not ask to die, her parents assumed life was not worth living and ended her life. I guess having volunteered three years with the disabled I grew to have a very different opinion about disabilities and those born with them or who have developed them in their lifetimes. Sometimes it's biological, sometimes an accident or twist of fate has brought it about.
Yet,....online you bash people who you think have "anti social or personality disorders"Huh Interesting,.....did you smash those kids in the face for looking at you the wrong way? I`m just trying to form an educated opinion...
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f_darkbladeus
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« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2010, 12:49:15 am »

Yet,....online you bash people who you think have "anti social or personality disorders"Huh Interesting,.....did you smash those kids in the face for looking at you the wrong way? I`m just trying to form an educated opinion...

FOF, grow up.
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ozzgod38
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« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2010, 10:39:50 am »

thats a tough one to call

here are my questions on this. do you think it's "ok" to kill someone who's born disabled just because you see that as an unfit and undeserving life to live? should everyone have to meet a minimum criteria of normality or else be subject to arbitrary termination? Should he not have relinquished custody of his daughter to someone who would care for her instead of killing her? Particularly because she was going to have a surgery that would alleviate her hip displacement (and therefore her pain)? I mean, even if she was eventually going to die of the disease, shouldn't she have had the privilege to live out her days as they were numbered instead of having someone, her father and mother no less, decide how many she should live? I am blown away by the story. and the public reaction of support to the father when it was murder. she was just disabled. a beautiful girl, and probably very sweet. should we terminate mongoloid children because they clearly are similarly mentally incapacitated? or limbless ones? ones born with defects that land them permanently in institutions? what about the "invisible" defects. sociopaths, and so on. do we start screening babies, and mark their documentation somehow so if at some point their parents decide to kill them we don't interfere? what about people who are resuscitated and then are vegetables? or, severe quadriplegics? does the lack of physical bodily function despite an intact mind signify it's time to administer the poison or morphine? what about burn victims...there's a whole load of questions this opens up.
what i mean is that it would tough to call cause there would be pepole on both sides of the issue
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f_darkbladeus
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« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2010, 02:34:40 pm »

what i mean is that it would tough to call cause there would be pepole on both sides of the issue

Of course there are. The question was what do you think.

Clearly there was a slant in the media portraying him as a beleaguered hero initially, as is common with the press when they sway public opinion on an issue. They were taken to task in the courts for doing that. He did not receive that kind of press subsequently, but as they say, "the damage was already done."

The question really is what constitutes 'justified homicide.' Does a parent born with a disabled child get a "get out of jail free" card if they make the decision to end that childs life, or is that childs life held sacred, above the rights of the parents, and not able to be ended arbitrarily by parental decision. What defines those "compelling" reasons...irreversible coma? No brain activity? A disability?

I remember not so long ago when public opinion held the blind as unfit to teach, as with deaf-mutes. They were institutionalized and not taught. Remember Helen Keller?
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AlpineValleyGirl
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« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2010, 02:29:02 am »

what i mean is that it would tough to call cause there would be pepole on both sides of the issue

Of course there are. The question was what do you think.

I think you are asking too many generalized questions and need to focus on this particular case.
I've done a lot of research about this in the last few days and, pulling a line out of the story found at this link;
http://www.skeptic.ca/Robert_Latimer.htm
Latimer simply says now, after fourteen years of legal entanglement, as he did then: "It was the right thing to do."
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f_darkbladeus
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« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2010, 01:03:34 am »

what i mean is that it would tough to call cause there would be pepole on both sides of the issue

Of course there are. The question was what do you think.

I think you are asking too many generalized questions and need to focus on this particular case.
I've done a lot of research about this in the last few days and, pulling a line out of the story found at this link;
http://www.skeptic.ca/Robert_Latimer.htm
Latimer simply says now, after fourteen years of legal entanglement, as he did then: "It was the right thing to do."

I would not expect a man who has not shown remorse at all for what happened to say or believe anything but that what he did was justified. I'm sure he had to have worked himself up to it "being the right thing to do" I think the man was suffering from grief and depression and was not in a sane state of mind personally. Death is not an easy thing to deal with, I'm sure he was under alot of duress.

This particular murder of a child begs the question "where does the line stop for what is justified homicide?"

What you said here in your last post, is it different then what you said in email that "in the thread, I was specifically responding to the Terry Sciavo comment and in no way was I advocating euthanasia for 12 year olds who suffer from cerebral palsy?"
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